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Charles W. posted on 7/13/2010 10:51:00 PM
Nathan:
Regarding the statement "I think you and Goebbels are the only two people in history who think propaganda is a good thing when it is 90% dishonest."
1. It seems to me to be more dishonest to assert that "not a single instance of direct groundwater contamination has been tied to the process" while at the same time covering your tracks by trading a supply of fresh water to homeowners in exchange for their agreement to not publicize the fact that their water was contaminated.
2. Really? You compare your well-spoken and polite guest to Goebbels?
3. I find it difficult to believe that your 90% figure is anything more than a fabricated statistic. I sincerely hope that the rest of the figures that the Commonwealth Foundation provides are more rigorously researched and defensable.
Also, regarding the statement "...the chemicals used in fracking are not unknown. State law requires companies to disclose all chemical compounds used in the fracking process, and this information is online."
Read the listing. Note the lines that say "Proprietary component." Sorry, that sounds like an undisclosed chemical to me. Regardless, I don't think well of anyone who intends to pump kerosine, diesel fuel, methanol, or any of their other chemicals into my groundwater. And you haven't responded to the point that they take inordinate amounts of water from local streams to do it.
The Commonwealth Foundation provides valuable information on other topics. But you seem to have gotten it wrong when it comes to the environmental impact of fracking for natural gas.
Nathan Benefield posted on 7/12/2010 9:44:00 AM
Also, the chemicals used in fracking are not unknown. State law requires companies to disclose all chemical compounds used in the fracking process, and this information is online: http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/minres/oilgas/FractListing.pdf
Another lie of Gasland, but that's okay, because propaganda need not be honest.
Nathan Benefield posted on 7/12/2010 9:37:00 AM
Virginia,
I think you and Goebbels are the only two people in history who think propaganda is a good thing when it is 90% dishonest.
I am also wondering if you would identify the specific acts of "deregulation" which led to the financial crisis and to the oil spill. It's hard to fathom, given the Federal Registry (listing all federal regulations) grew by 1,000 pages per year under Bush. It is also hard to reconcile "deregulation" with the fact the federal government was pushing home-ownership among credit risks, through both the Community Reinvestment Act and through requiring Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy up subprime loans. And wasn't it a moratorium on shallow-water drilling that forced BP to drill in deep water areas, where it is more dangerous.
Also, I think you should read the full policy report. If you want to demonize "Big Business" you will want to make note that PennFuture gets is funding from Big Business - including BP - and then lobbies for taxpayer subsidies for Big Business. They are not the grassroots group protecting the environment you seem to think them, but lobbyists for hire for special interests.
Virginia Cody posted on 7/11/2010 7:43:00 PM
Let's get one thing straight: of course Gasland is propaganda, but all propaganda contains some truth. In this case, Gasland's one-sided truth does the public a huge favor by acting as a counterweight to endless effective propaganda by corporations and wealthy conservative think tanks that has seriously undermined corporate regulation over the years, resulting in a continual need for financial sector bailouts and renewed catastrophes, the latest of which is the Gulf oil spill. And Dick Cheney's ability to influence government policy in favor of Halliburton, both in energy policy and sweetheart contracts in Iraq, is an insult to any American who values democracy or freedom. Josh Fox is utterly justified in fighting back with slightly unfair weapons--conservative think tanks, the Rush Limbaughs of this world, and the Bush administration in its vile, misleading propaganda for the Iraq War have been using them--against the common good for a long time.
We should be scoffingly skeptical of any data coming from a corporation or a conservative think tank; I believe the ProPublica series of investigative reports (http://www.propublica.org/article/natural-gas-drilling-what-we-dont-know-1231) effectively debunks the claims you make about the safety of fracking or drilling--and ProPublica's editor-in-chief Paul Steiger is former managing editor of the Wall Street Journal, hardly a liberal, anti-business rag.
Remember, finally, that it's been impossible for scientists to determine which of the 1,000+ incidents of water contamination in areas fracked and drilled are actually due to fracking, since, not knowing the proprietary chemicals involved, they haven't known just what to look for.
If this is all so safe, why has a heavy corporate-welfare-favoring Congress nonetheless
urged the EPA to make a thorough new study?
Finally, who will compensate third parties whose communities are utterly transformed overnight into ugly, crime-ridden zones of rapid unplanned growth; our legislatures are bought off and local zoning laws can't control what happens in a whole region. Taxation without representation if I ever saw it.
Nathan Benefield posted on 7/11/2010 6:45:00 PM
Here are some example of how Gasland gets it wrong: http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/gasland-debunked
You should note that John Hanger, founder of PennFuture and now Pennsylvania's DEP Secretary calls Gasland "propaganda": http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_top_stories/97046339.html
Hydraulic fracturing has been well established - Over one million wells using hydraulic fracturing have been drilled nationally since the technology was developed in the 1960s, and not a single instance of direct groundwater contamination
has been tied to the process.
Note that fracturing differs from drilling itself, in which 80 cases (out of 32,000 wells drilled, or 0.25%) have had groundwater contamination - but none with health impact. This is the data reported by the US EPA and the state Departments of Environmental Protection. See more here: http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/research/detail/pennsylvanias-natural-gas-boom
Virginia Cody posted on 7/10/2010 10:23:00 PM
Some examples please? (And just as a matter of truth here, I've been examining this for a while....and didn't even know about the film "Gasland" until last week. And yes, I did see it. And I do acknowledge there's bias there....but 20 miles away from my house is the town of Dimock and I can visit the residents who have no clean well water ... and I can see the water buffaloes...The accidents that have occurred are NOT imaginary or fraudulent.)
Joe posted on 7/10/2010 9:37:00 PM
Either you've experienced something that more than 30 state and federal regulatory agencies some how missed over the last 60 years or you've watched too many movies like Gasland that are riddled with misleading and inaccurate information.
Virginia Cody posted on 7/10/2010 6:58:00 PM
First, I agree with you: political maneuvering to get what you want is undesirable. Unfortunately, and I state this as a retired USAF officer, politics is the way the game is played. I hated it when I was in the military, I hated it when I was in business, and I hate to watch it now. Nevertheless, as I said, it is the way things get (or don't) get done. The gas companies have millions of dollars to lobby for what they want; PennFuture levels the playing field.
Now, about the scariest environmental catastrophes waiting to happen. Hydraulic fracturing...particularly horizontal hydraulic fracturing...has NOT been proven safe in any way, shape, or form. At present, thousands of wells are being hurriedly dug into the mountains of northeastern Pennsylvania with absolutely no environmental oversight. Already one little town around here has had its groundwater completely contaminated and residents now have water buffaloes stationed in their yards. Animals are already sick. People are already sick. And this has all come about in the last 3 years when the number of wells were minimal. Gas companies are sucking the creeks and lakes and rivers here dry because they use well over 500 disease causing chemicals to mix with millions of gallons of clean water (something we're very proud to have around here)and to pump it through our aquifers. Nobody knows whether the heavy metals getting pumped through the aquifers are settling on the bottom so that one day there will be such a build up the only fresh water will be a thin layer on top. Aquifers are connected. The water supply of NYC was deemed to be too at risk for drilling to take place in the watershed there. Here in PA? The watershed that serves Philadelphia is apparently okay to risk. Wells are being planned for the banks of the Susquehanna River...which flows into the Chesapeake Bay.
Obviously, I'm very passionate about this so could go on and on. But, I won't. I'll just say, I'm really scared. I understand there's a need to free ourselves from our need for foreign oil. I understand that natural gas is a cleaner type of fuel. But at present the rush to start digging before the facts are in just doesn't make sense. And I absolutely believe that human error here is going to cause the scariest environmental catastrophe human beings on this planet have ever seen.
Joe posted on 7/10/2010 6:26:00 PM
Virginia:
"Scariest environmental catastrophes waiting to happen..." ? Please explain. Then also explain how this is a "low blow by Chesser" when all he cites are facts about how PF lobbies for subsidies and mandates for its financial supporters while also lobbying for taxpayer money for itself. You think its great they've "learned to play" the game. I think it is what is wrong with Harrisburg and Washington.
Virginia Cody posted on 7/9/2010 3:57:00 PM
Are you kidding me? You have the audacity to criticize an organization that's learned to play (and maybe beat) the gas companies at their own game? There are hundreds of small organized groups around this state trying to get lawmakers to listen to us about one of the scariest environmental catastrophes waiting to happen...and PennFuture has figured out how to be heard! This is a low blow by Chesser -- trying to take down an organization that's fighting for the truth. Guess he can't be bothered actually examining the truth. Or maybe he's just acting as a gas company hack with some secret agenda.
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